Iraq War Protest

An estimated 100,000 are engaging in an anti-war protest in Washington D.C.; has organized a protest on the same day (Saturday September 24th 2005) starting at 4pm at the intersection of 24th Street and Camelback.

More information here: Phoenix Iraq War Protest

17 Comments so far

  1. Gabe (unregistered) on September 23rd, 2005 @ 12:35 pm

    And we care because….?

    Besides, the numbers are always overestimated. Plus this won’t change the outcome. The troops will still remain there and the little march will be for nothing.

    Don’t get me wrong, I don’t like that our troops have been dying in Iraq but having a march doesn’t solve anything and it will not save one of those soldiers lives. If anything, it encourages the enemy to make more attacks. They think that if our country is divided, then maybe now is a good time to capitalize on that division. All you have to do is look at the history of Vietnam to know that’s true. How many protests went on and how many soldiers died? The vietcong could read the news in America. They knew what was happening over here.

  2. Ralph Chaplin (unregistered) on September 23rd, 2005 @ 1:56 pm

    Mourn not the dead that in the cool earth lie, but rather mourn the apathetic, throng the coward and the meek who see the world’s great anguish and its wrong, and dare not speak.

  3. Albert Einstein (unregistered) on September 23rd, 2005 @ 1:57 pm

    The world is a dangerous place to live; not because of the people who are evil, but because of the people who don’t do anything about it.

  4. Charles de Montesquieu (unregistered) on September 23rd, 2005 @ 2:01 pm

    The tyranny of a prince in an oligarchy is not so dangerous to the public welfare as the apathy of assistance in a democracy.

  5. Gabe (unregistered) on September 23rd, 2005 @ 2:57 pm

    All good quotes. Now if you would just step out from behind the quotes that you’re hiding behind, maybe we could talk and maybe you could explain how these apply to this situation.

    I’m not talking about being apathetic. Supporting our troops is not being apathetic. If you really want to help, go down to Texas or New Orleans.

  6. Carrie (unregistered) on September 23rd, 2005 @ 3:05 pm

    Well…why do you think we are there? And what is the endgame?

  7. Kevin (unregistered) on September 23rd, 2005 @ 3:25 pm

    Regardless of what you believed prior to the occupation leaving now may not be an option.

    I think whether or not dissent in the US encourages insurgents or or not is open for debate. I suspect they’ve enough motivation without justifying further attacks on an anti-war rally in DC.

    But I believe dissent to be a vital…perhaps the most vital…characteristic of a democracy.

    What would have happened in Vietnam if there hadn’t been a vocal dissent to our involvement? What would have happened if the noise generated by protests in the 60s would have eroded political support 4 years earlier than it did.

    I don’t know who posted the quotes btw.

  8. Gabe (unregistered) on September 23rd, 2005 @ 4:58 pm

    I think we’re there because of faulty information but that doesn’t mean that we should pull out now. Like Kevin has said, leaving is not an option. How we got here doesn’t mean that we should up and leave the country in a worse predicament than we found it. Because that’s exactly what will happen if we leave now. I know from talking to someone in Army intelligence that the WMD’s were there. Where they’ve gone? We’re not sure but Saddam used them on the kurds. So the proof that they were there exists.

    Endgame? Endgame has already been set. We have our exit strategy. It’s called setup a legitimate government, stabilize the country, and train their countrymen to defend their country. Then we can leave. We’ve already done the first 2 tasks that I mentioned and we’re already working on the third. The only reason we haven’t left yet is because their army and police force is not adequately trained yet.

    I agree that dissent is important or else we would have a dictatorship but it has it’s place just as everything else does. There is a time and season for everything.

  9. Gabe (unregistered) on September 26th, 2005 @ 1:01 pm

    **Tumble weed rolls by**
    All’s quiet on the western front as Sheehan gets arrested? Where’s is everyone or did you run away at the thought of someone challenging your liberal ideals?

  10. Kevin (unregistered) on September 26th, 2005 @ 4:00 pm

    I think discourse has broken down in the United States. In the media, between political parties, and between citizens.

    Part of the problem, as I see it, is an increase in the use of logical fallacies in conversation. Or perhaps the decrease in recognition of these.

    Without an agreement on how to talk to each other…I think the actual content of the conversations loses importance.

    For example…the above post…is an example of a circumstantial ad hominem. (The classification of this fallacy may be arguable.)

    I don’t want to attack the poster. I just want to examine the ways in which the discourse is never given a fair chance. And question the effect of this in the US today.

  11. Gabe (unregistered) on September 27th, 2005 @ 11:28 am

    I would argue that it is not circumstantial ad hominem (since it does not serve my self interest other than to get some response) but simply an attempt to start some conversation or debate. You may feel that is an attack but that’s the point; to get some response but it doesn’t serve any purpose for me. It does not automatically invalidate the arguement just because I make that statement.

    No one has taken the time to challenge what I’ve said. They’ve simply dismissed me and not responded. You can say that there has been a break down in discourse due to the lack of common language but I would counter that by saying that I think you throwing up a barrier to justify not engaging in the discourse. I’m not saying you’re wrong. I’m saying that you’re not even involved.

  12. Kevin (unregistered) on September 27th, 2005 @ 3:35 pm

    Ok – what’s the conjecture here? Are these the points?

    1) Civic action in the form of demonstrations and anti-war rallies won’t solve anything and won’t save the lives of soldiers.
    2) These same actions may even encourage the insurgency. This idea being that they’re fighting to remove the US from Iraqi soil and declining support for the war could be the fastest way for this evactuation to occur.
    3) The Vietnam war can be used as an example to support both of the above points.

    Are these the points you’re asking to be challenged or supported?

  13. Gabe (unregistered) on September 28th, 2005 @ 11:34 am

    For the most part, correct. I think that #3 could be argued obviously since that could be stated more as a point of view than an actual fact.

  14. Kevin (unregistered) on September 28th, 2005 @ 3:28 pm

    Hmmm…ok – to play devil’s advocate. I’ll address number one.

    Popular support of the war in Vietnam dropped dramatically towards the end of the 60s/beginning of the 70s. (Don’t have figures here…just making an assumption. Feel free to rebut.)

    Was our reduction forces and eventual withdrawal in part caused by the fact supporting the war was no longer politcally viable for the Executive branch? For Congress?

    Did anti-war protests play any part in declining popular support?

  15. Gabe (unregistered) on October 4th, 2005 @ 5:21 pm

    nope. it didnt change the support.

  16. Heather (unregistered) on October 26th, 2005 @ 6:20 am

    Many of these comments make great points, but like Gabe said no protesting is going to bring back, or stop more troops from going to Iraq. I am a Marine, and getting ready to head back to Iraq for a second deployment. No one can fully understand what goes through the mind of military people, unless they themselves have been one, been to war, and know the feeling, know the pride of serving our country. Fighting for the very freedom that surrounds you and me. The american population can’t get past their own short sightedness to see that there is a people out there who want that very same freedom. And they understand that we are there to help them do that. I was there for the elections in January 05 and to hear them ask us not to make them provide security on their own, that they wanted us to be there, to help them…that makes all the difference in the world to me, and most of the military.
    You always hear of mom’s saying ‘we shouldn’t be there….my son was killed…blah…blah….blah no I can’t understand that because I dont have a son over there, but I know what it’s like to lose the very best friend that you’ve spent you’re whole life loving. I know what it’s like to hear bullets wizzing past your head, and wonder if it’s going to hit the guy next to you, or if one of your guys will go down. It’s fear. All the sons and daughters of our nation that are currently deployed made that decision for themselves. They had the courage to step up to the plate and say ” I want to fight for my country, for what it was founded on, and provide that for other countries. Other people deserve to be free too” They knew the risk, they knew that being a Marine, or and Army guy was about fighting for what you believe in.
    Why can’t America stand up and realize that?

  17. Gabe (unregistered) on November 1st, 2005 @ 10:02 am

    Very well said Heather. I was with the Army for 10 years and I couldn’t agree more. I feel like this nation has forgotten one important value that was shown in WWII: Self-Sacrifice. While people may have the right to protest our involvement in the war in Iraq, it won’t stop the troops that are there and continue to get deployed there. It also means that someone else goes in your place and sometimes, just sometimes, that person dies in their place. I feel like people here forget that and don’t value it. I feel like Cindy Sheehan is using the death of her son to spit on the graves of every soldier that has died there by making herself the epitomie of the anti-war movement. I don’t think her son would feel honor at what she has done. Don’t get me wrong, I believe that discourse in the American forum is important but not at the expense of our soldiers. I don’t believe the lie from the anti-war movement that says we should never have gotten involved with Iraq and especially when I hear from people like Heather.

    Personally Heather, let me say Thank you to you for your service and for all those that won’t say thank you. You will be in my prayers.

    Those who have fought for it know that freedom has a distinct flavor the protected will never know.

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